Xbox 720 document leak?


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Whizzo
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Real or fake? Looks like a lot of effort for a hoax and it's more like something Microsoft would use for a rough idea on how to proceed for the next gen rather than "this is what we're building". It appears to be from 2010.
#1 at 13:53:22 - 16/06/2012
peej
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If that's from 2010 that would explain why it's already hideously out of date. Up the ram to 8gb, double the processor speed and seriously consider making it 1080p only, MS.

Whatever the specs of whatever the 360 will be succeeded by, I know it'll probably be the only next generation console I seriously get a preorder in for.
#2 at 17:00:28 - 16/06/2012
frod
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is it spectacularly poorly made and unprofessional, or fake?
#3 at 18:17:57 - 16/06/2012
frod
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I have another theory that MS is seeding things like this for various reasons, market research, maintaining hype, managing expectations.
#4 at 18:19:39 - 16/06/2012
evilashchris
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I'd take 60fps over 1080p any day of the week. Mind you, let me take my XBLA games with me and I'm sold on the nextbox already.
#5 at 19:16:41 - 16/06/2012
ilmaestro
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I'll buy it just for the craic, but oh my days is this "the 360 was any good" stuff some bizarre angle to come from. If the times of launch had been switched between the PS3 and 360, I don't even think MS would be bothering with another console. They might have had to give up immediately following the red ring business.
#6 at 20:23:04 - 16/06/2012
Whizzo
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It's been removed at the request of Covington & Burling LLP.

A quick Google of them reveals it's a law firm Microsoft have used in the past.
#7 at 21:26:51 - 16/06/2012
NewYork
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1080p-only, like "download content only" is unrealistic considering these consoles are sold worldwide and no company would want to limit their reach that way.
#8 at 21:31:26 - 16/06/2012
ilmaestro
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Obviously peej doesn't mean remove any way to output the video to old school TVs - he is talking on a technical "how have you made this game" level, presumably thinking about dat tearing issue that he loves so much. :p
#9 at 22:11:45 - 16/06/2012
peej
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I don't see why 1080p only is that much of a stretch. If you're into gaming and you're still using this generation of consoles on some crappy old scart-fed dinosaur then time to front up the couple of hundred quid or so it'll cost you to get something 1080p / HDMI. Seriously this generation's consoles practically booted the HD TV revolution up the arse I can't see why next generation hardware can't insist on a half decent display. 'Course I'd have to buy a new gaming telly because I'm still using an old 1080i dinosaur myself :)

As for tearing, developers are too sodding lazy for that to ever go away completely unless the hardware has it designed out from day one, again something an uber cynic like me can't see happening though again not exactly the world's most unrealistic or unreasonable request.
#10 at 22:41:33 - 16/06/2012
ilmaestro
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Oh, OK, you're a nutcase then, and NY is right for once. :p
#11 at 23:18:39 - 16/06/2012
NewYork
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And even ignoring worldwide, even in the UK Microsoft could kiss goodbye to a lot of customers who own consoles purely to play FIFA in their bedrooms, especially parents who buy consoles for their kid's room, etc.

Not everybody has their console in their living room hooked up to their pride-and-joy television.
#12 at 23:30:39 - 16/06/2012
frod
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peej said:developers are too sodding lazy


hopefully one day this ridiculous, baseless suggestion will die, because it's just insulting and ignorant.

games have unoptimised graphics because the dev budget runs out, not because the devs couldn't be arsed to work 18 hours that day during the crunch instead of the usual 17.
#13 at 00:50:44 - 17/06/2012
nekotcha
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frod said:
peej said:developers are too sodding lazy


hopefully one day this ridiculous, baseless suggestion will die, because it's just insulting and ignorant.

games have unoptimised graphics because the dev budget runs out, not because the devs couldn't be arsed to work 18 hours that day during the crunch instead of the usual 17.


It's also because graphics still do much of the work in selling a game and when marketing a video game, it's easier to sell a game that looks beautiful in static screenshots and promo videos but that tears like a bugger in reality, than it is a frame-locked game that loses some of the visual bells and whistles in order to achieve a stable frame rate.

Accusations of laziness or incompetence on the dev's part are actually way off the mark - in most cases not only are developers aware of tearing but they consciously decide to leave it in the game because it's a compromise they have decided to make in order to deliver a game that looks that little bit prettier in screenshots and cutscenes than the frame-locked competition.

And actually, given that plenty of games exhibiting tonnes of tearing continue to sell extremely well, it's worth considering that perhaps, to the majority of gamers, tearing isn't as much of an issue as is sometimes suggested. Personally I don't like it - but then as a developer I'm always likely to be sensitive to such things, as are most of the folks on this site, I suspect.

But with the continued pursuit of higher resolutions and greater visual quality I certainly have no illusions that frame tearing and other seemingly 'solved' rendering issues will continue to rear their head in most games for many years to come. The only way for it to be seriously eradicated would be for the platforms holders to essentially 'ban' it by enforcing a rule against tearing in their TRCs, but given that this would inevitably involve visual compromises it would essentially be like enforcing a rule to make the console's visuals appear less good (in terms of screenshots and promo videos, at least), than the competition, which means it's highly unlikely to ever happen.
#14 at 17:30:51 - 17/06/2012
Kay
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Nekotcha - surely bullshots do much of the work in selling a game from screenshots, anyway?

Still, your last point is one big reason for why I'm so fond of Nintendo's approach in recent generations. For all the criticism they've received for making underpowered consoles, they always on focus on the games and experience, rather than the tech itself. And it's probably no coincidence that their games are always technically sound, no tearing whatsoever and 60fps whenever possible.
#15 at 00:57:08 - 18/06/2012
nekotcha
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It's true that there's often more fabrication going on in screenshots than just the obvious masking of performance issues, but the core point I was trying to make was that tearing is rarely if ever an accidental thing - it's usually a conscious decision on the part of the developer/publisher, and is most often supported by a desire to have a game that looks as flashy as possible, even if the compromise is to make it slightly less smooth when you're actually playing it.
#16 at 13:04:21 - 18/06/2012
billdoor
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The document has "for discussion purposes only" plastered all over it. So it's an almost 2 year old wish list then :/
#17 at 13:45:51 - 18/06/2012
Whizzo
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Fairly easy to read between the lines from Microsoft, it was indeed genuine.
#18 at 00:39:30 - 20/06/2012
peej
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nekotcha said:
frod said:
peej said:developers are too sodding lazy


hopefully one day this ridiculous, baseless suggestion will die, because it's just insulting and ignorant.

games have unoptimised graphics because the dev budget runs out, not because the devs couldn't be arsed to work 18 hours that day during the crunch instead of the usual 17.


It's also because graphics still do much of the work in selling a game and when marketing a video game, it's easier to sell a game that looks beautiful in static screenshots and promo videos but that tears like a bugger in reality, than it is a frame-locked game that loses some of the visual bells and whistles in order to achieve a stable frame rate.

Accusations of laziness or incompetence on the dev's part are actually way off the mark - in most cases not only are developers aware of tearing but they consciously decide to leave it in the game because it's a compromise they have decided to make in order to deliver a game that looks that little bit prettier in screenshots and cutscenes than the frame-locked competition.

And actually, given that plenty of games exhibiting tonnes of tearing continue to sell extremely well, it's worth considering that perhaps, to the majority of gamers, tearing isn't as much of an issue as is sometimes suggested. Personally I don't like it - but then as a developer I'm always likely to be sensitive to such things, as are most of the folks on this site, I suspect.

But with the continued pursuit of higher resolutions and greater visual quality I certainly have no illusions that frame tearing and other seemingly 'solved' rendering issues will continue to rear their head in most games for many years to come. The only way for it to be seriously eradicated would be for the platforms holders to essentially 'ban' it by enforcing a rule against tearing in their TRCs, but given that this would inevitably involve visual compromises it would essentially be like enforcing a rule to make the console's visuals appear less good (in terms of screenshots and promo videos, at least), than the competition, which means it's highly unlikely to ever happen.


Frod's probably right, it's a reaction born of ignorance, in that I have no bloody idea what it takes to keep some of the current generation engines kicking around and constantly recycled for new games ticking along and looking respectable. Every time I hear the Call of Duty engine described as 'A Porsche' I actually think they're pretty near the mark as it's consistently been one game series that manages the neat trick of looking good (when Infinity Ward are at the helm at least) and not tearing its own arse out when it's tricking along at a respectable frame rate.

I guess the 'laziness' comment is purely out of order when everyone knows that tight deadlines, publisher (and stakeholder) pressure and christ knows what else will inevitably lead to crunches and the sort of hard decisions any dev team has to make when their game gets to a certain point and needs to be booted out the door looking as good as it's going to get.

From a gamer's perspective it's frustrating to be taken out of the immersion of a game and tearing does that for me, each and every time even when it's extremely subtle which is probably why I get so uppity about it. I am getting to the point where I've seen so much of it this generation that it sometimes slips under my radar but it does still break the immersion for me, and it seems that games that seek to mimic real life as close as possible are the worst culprits simply because there's no feckin' way games running on hoary old hardware like the 360 and PS3 can possibly keep up a solid visual foundation and include all the neat little tricks, lighting and shading that modern games demand.

As to this specs leak, it's a genuine wishlist that actually isn't that stupid and would probably tick the boxes for a lot of current generation developers looking to adapt their shit (the U4 guys would most certainly be happy with that, surely?) In the end though it's a wishlist, nothing more, and to bring in a games console at the sweet spot of 250-300 for a base model, that spec list is going to have to be pared in some way.
#19 at 09:07:25 - 25/06/2012

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